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	<title>Comments for bonnefriesen.com</title>
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	<description>Bonne Friesen ~ Dances With Words</description>
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		<title>Comment on Codependency vs Biblical Self-Denial I by Bonne</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/15/codependency-vs-biblical-self-denial-i/comment-page-1/#comment-656</link>
		<dc:creator>Bonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=213#comment-656</guid>
		<description>While I have scripture in mind, I still haven&#039;t confirmed the chapters and verses to include here.

The most obvious example though is the Mary and Martha story.  Martha was in classic co-dependent mode &#039;taking care&#039; of everyone with a martyr attitude that led her to persecute Mary, who wasn&#039;t being as &#039;loving&#039; as Martha herself.

And Jesus compassionately describes the classic co-dependent state of mind &quot;Martha, you&#039;re troubled about many things.&quot;  Mary meanwhile was doing what was more important to her than being a good hostess.  She was listening to Jesus.

Mary is not chided by Jesus that she should have been taking care of others, like Martha was.  Jesus says that Mary chose a better thing to do, taking care of her spiritual development, and that she shouldn&#039;t stop because someone thought she was too heavenly minded to be of earthly good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I have scripture in mind, I still haven&#8217;t confirmed the chapters and verses to include here.</p>
<p>The most obvious example though is the Mary and Martha story.  Martha was in classic co-dependent mode &#8216;taking care&#8217; of everyone with a martyr attitude that led her to persecute Mary, who wasn&#8217;t being as &#8216;loving&#8217; as Martha herself.</p>
<p>And Jesus compassionately describes the classic co-dependent state of mind &#8220;Martha, you&#8217;re troubled about many things.&#8221;  Mary meanwhile was doing what was more important to her than being a good hostess.  She was listening to Jesus.</p>
<p>Mary is not chided by Jesus that she should have been taking care of others, like Martha was.  Jesus says that Mary chose a better thing to do, taking care of her spiritual development, and that she shouldn&#8217;t stop because someone thought she was too heavenly minded to be of earthly good.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Codependency vs Biblical Self-Denial I by Robyn</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/15/codependency-vs-biblical-self-denial-i/comment-page-1/#comment-655</link>
		<dc:creator>Robyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=213#comment-655</guid>
		<description>Nice.  I like this.  It would be great to have a list of verses as examples of Jesus not being codependent or other passages related to codependence to refer to.  Do have anything like this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice.  I like this.  It would be great to have a list of verses as examples of Jesus not being codependent or other passages related to codependence to refer to.  Do have anything like this?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Novella by Valerie</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/05/08/225/comment-page-1/#comment-654</link>
		<dc:creator>Valerie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 23:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=225#comment-654</guid>
		<description>Yay for calling down lightning! I&#039;ve been doing it myself this week with fairly decent results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yay for calling down lightning! I&#8217;ve been doing it myself this week with fairly decent results.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Michael&#8217;s Question by j</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/22/221/comment-page-1/#comment-653</link>
		<dc:creator>j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 02:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=221#comment-653</guid>
		<description>I love this piece. â€œIf I hear the music, Iâ€™ll have to dance.â€ How often have we avoided that which would bring us joy, for fear of it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this piece. â€œIf I hear the music, Iâ€™ll have to dance.â€ How often have we avoided that which would bring us joy, for fear of it?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by mom</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-652</link>
		<dc:creator>mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 12:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-652</guid>
		<description>Just checking in on ya!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just checking in on ya!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by bonne</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-651</link>
		<dc:creator>bonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 01:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-651</guid>
		<description>Carla, I think you&#039;d be surprised how many fabulous Christian women are out there now, redeeming for Christ things thought scandalous, making an impact in the world while not being of the world.  Where have you been going to church, girl?  Oh, right.  England.  Well here, the last ten or more years has seen a lot of shackles removed from women in ministry and in what&#039;s acceptable in a Christian Mom.  You can be strong and feminine at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carla, I think you&#8217;d be surprised how many fabulous Christian women are out there now, redeeming for Christ things thought scandalous, making an impact in the world while not being of the world.  Where have you been going to church, girl?  Oh, right.  England.  Well here, the last ten or more years has seen a lot of shackles removed from women in ministry and in what&#8217;s acceptable in a Christian Mom.  You can be strong and feminine at the same time.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by Jason Friesen</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-650</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Friesen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 01:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-650</guid>
		<description>Seeking is good. :) 

What we must all do is go back to the Bible and challenge religious leaders on their own terms. There&#039;s usually lots of areas in which they are missing the clear teaching of the Bible -- such as the wonderfully &lt;em&gt;equal&lt;/em&gt; role of women in the New Covenant. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;
In Christ&#039;s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal.
&lt;cite&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:28;&amp;version=65;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Galatians 3:28 (MSG)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeking is good. <img src='http://bonnefriesen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>What we must all do is go back to the Bible and challenge religious leaders on their own terms. There&#8217;s usually lots of areas in which they are missing the clear teaching of the Bible &#8212; such as the wonderfully <em>equal</em> role of women in the New Covenant. </p>
<blockquote><p>
In Christ&#8217;s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal.<br />
<cite><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:28;&amp;version=65;" rel="nofollow">Galatians 3:28 (MSG)</a></cite>
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by Carla</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-649</link>
		<dc:creator>Carla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-649</guid>
		<description>Thanks for that, B. I think we&#039;re pretty much on the same wavelength but of course you express it much more eloquently than I can. My point about the interest in gnostic gospels is that a lot of people are searching for a theology they can live with but Religion/the Church has kind of distorted that. I agree with you about the example of strong women in the Bible, but their examples aren&#039;t shouted out enough nearly enough! I think Christian women are sometimes afraid of expressing themselves lest they got thought of as raging feminists.   I admit, I don&#039;t know my theology as well as you. But I am a seeker and that&#039;s gotta count for something. I&#039;m going to read your latest blog post now!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for that, B. I think we&#8217;re pretty much on the same wavelength but of course you express it much more eloquently than I can. My point about the interest in gnostic gospels is that a lot of people are searching for a theology they can live with but Religion/the Church has kind of distorted that. I agree with you about the example of strong women in the Bible, but their examples aren&#8217;t shouted out enough nearly enough! I think Christian women are sometimes afraid of expressing themselves lest they got thought of as raging feminists.   I admit, I don&#8217;t know my theology as well as you. But I am a seeker and that&#8217;s gotta count for something. I&#8217;m going to read your latest blog post now!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by bonne</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>bonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 21:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Hey Carla,

First, let me point you my Rescuing Your Inner Princess article (don&#039;t groan, just read it!) for some thoughts on finding yourself as a woman.  But come back here and finish reading, too!

The Bible is full of strong women, you don&#039;t need the gnostic gospels to find them!  The old testament gives us Jael and Deborah and Miriam and Hannah and Rahab and Tamar and Ruth and so many.  Not all of them were strong in a butchy-feminism way, but they all were active in affecting their own destiny, some in changing the destiny of nations.  Some were scandalous in their behaviour, but were counted righteous for it.

In the New Testament, if we take away whatever cultural predisposition we were raised with, we can see how Jesus treated women with great respect, which was counter-culture for his time.  Women were with him, they supported his ministry, they stood at the foot of the cross when all but one disciple was nowhere to be found.  And a women was the first to see him out of the grave, she was the first evangelist.

 The prophetic 5 daughters of (I think it was) Philip, Damaris the career woman who got the church in her city started, Priscilla who is often mentioned ahead of her husband Aquila in their ministry...we don&#039;t get a lot of meat on these stories, but there they are.  

Any theologically responsible church today is going to be sure that they state the whole passage referring to the dreaded &#039;submission&#039; topic.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.
&lt;cite&gt;Colossians 3:17-19 (English Standard Version)&lt;/cite&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In Ephesians 5, we get more detail on what is expected from both parties.  The part in brackets is about what Christ did for the Church and husbands are not expected to accomplish these things for their wives: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even a Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, [26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish]. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It starts off a pretty hard line, but I think the husbands get the harder part.  They are given an enormous responsibility, told to live lovingly with us, nourishing and supporting us,and commanded to even die for us if necessary.

If a man loves and cherishes you in this way, he is not going to be abusive or treat as a sub-human.  He is going to listen to your point of view and consider your perspective and treat you very well indeed! In this kind of relationship, submission is less scary.

But submission does mean the bottom line falls on him.  If there&#039;s a disagreement, there can be ongoing discussion, but at the end of the day his decision carries.

That can really suck. But remember this:  When you KNOW he hasn&#039;t got it right and you KNOW there&#039;s going to be a disaster, it&#039;s not really him that we submit to, but we&#039;re submitting to God who has required us to submit to our husbands.  The darkest bottom of submission fear boils down to trust, or rather lack of trust, in God.  

I know how hard it can be. It&#039;s a tremendous exercise of faith to submit to  another fallible human.  But look higher, and while you submit to your husband, place your trust in God.  In this life we&#039;re going to walk through many fires whether we trust or not.  Choosing to trust doesn&#039;t take away the pain, but it can turn the hard places into magnificent experiences of spiritual growth.

love you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Carla,</p>
<p>First, let me point you my Rescuing Your Inner Princess article (don&#8217;t groan, just read it!) for some thoughts on finding yourself as a woman.  But come back here and finish reading, too!</p>
<p>The Bible is full of strong women, you don&#8217;t need the gnostic gospels to find them!  The old testament gives us Jael and Deborah and Miriam and Hannah and Rahab and Tamar and Ruth and so many.  Not all of them were strong in a butchy-feminism way, but they all were active in affecting their own destiny, some in changing the destiny of nations.  Some were scandalous in their behaviour, but were counted righteous for it.</p>
<p>In the New Testament, if we take away whatever cultural predisposition we were raised with, we can see how Jesus treated women with great respect, which was counter-culture for his time.  Women were with him, they supported his ministry, they stood at the foot of the cross when all but one disciple was nowhere to be found.  And a women was the first to see him out of the grave, she was the first evangelist.</p>
<p> The prophetic 5 daughters of (I think it was) Philip, Damaris the career woman who got the church in her city started, Priscilla who is often mentioned ahead of her husband Aquila in their ministry&#8230;we don&#8217;t get a lot of meat on these stories, but there they are.  </p>
<p>Any theologically responsible church today is going to be sure that they state the whole passage referring to the dreaded &#8217;submission&#8217; topic.  </p>
<blockquote><p>
17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.<br />
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.<br />
<cite>Colossians 3:17-19 (English Standard Version)</cite>
</p></blockquote>
<p>In Ephesians 5, we get more detail on what is expected from both parties.  The part in brackets is about what Christ did for the Church and husbands are not expected to accomplish these things for their wives: </p>
<blockquote><p>
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife even a Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.</p>
<p> 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, [26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish]. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church
</p></blockquote>
<p>It starts off a pretty hard line, but I think the husbands get the harder part.  They are given an enormous responsibility, told to live lovingly with us, nourishing and supporting us,and commanded to even die for us if necessary.</p>
<p>If a man loves and cherishes you in this way, he is not going to be abusive or treat as a sub-human.  He is going to listen to your point of view and consider your perspective and treat you very well indeed! In this kind of relationship, submission is less scary.</p>
<p>But submission does mean the bottom line falls on him.  If there&#8217;s a disagreement, there can be ongoing discussion, but at the end of the day his decision carries.</p>
<p>That can really suck. But remember this:  When you KNOW he hasn&#8217;t got it right and you KNOW there&#8217;s going to be a disaster, it&#8217;s not really him that we submit to, but we&#8217;re submitting to God who has required us to submit to our husbands.  The darkest bottom of submission fear boils down to trust, or rather lack of trust, in God.  </p>
<p>I know how hard it can be. It&#8217;s a tremendous exercise of faith to submit to  another fallible human.  But look higher, and while you submit to your husband, place your trust in God.  In this life we&#8217;re going to walk through many fires whether we trust or not.  Choosing to trust doesn&#8217;t take away the pain, but it can turn the hard places into magnificent experiences of spiritual growth.</p>
<p>love you</p>
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		<title>Comment on Co-dependence vs Self Denial by Carla</title>
		<link>http://bonnefriesen.com/2009/04/04/co-dependence-vs-total-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-644</link>
		<dc:creator>Carla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bonnefriesen.com/?p=175#comment-644</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been thinking about this too..but also the issue of co-dependence and women and being a Christian. I think the Church is often scared to look at this issue, because there&#039;s the whole &#039;submit to your husband&#039; thing, and there&#039;s the whole cookie-baking, perfect Christian Mom thing. I think a lot of Christian women tend to hide behind this image because they don&#039;t know what else to be, because it might make them look bad ie non-Christian.  Thus there&#039;s a whole undercurrrent of a movement toward the Gnostic gospels (the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, for example). I am personally fascinated by the school of thought that proposes that women were an integral part of the new Church way back when, but were essentially overlooked or downgraded by early Church leaders. Am I a heretic for daring to believe this concept? I dunno, but right how I need some strength in my faith and as a woman and I take comfort in learning about strong women. 

I&#039;ll shut up now. Gotta do the Mom thing and get supper on the table.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this too..but also the issue of co-dependence and women and being a Christian. I think the Church is often scared to look at this issue, because there&#8217;s the whole &#8217;submit to your husband&#8217; thing, and there&#8217;s the whole cookie-baking, perfect Christian Mom thing. I think a lot of Christian women tend to hide behind this image because they don&#8217;t know what else to be, because it might make them look bad ie non-Christian.  Thus there&#8217;s a whole undercurrrent of a movement toward the Gnostic gospels (the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, for example). I am personally fascinated by the school of thought that proposes that women were an integral part of the new Church way back when, but were essentially overlooked or downgraded by early Church leaders. Am I a heretic for daring to believe this concept? I dunno, but right how I need some strength in my faith and as a woman and I take comfort in learning about strong women. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll shut up now. Gotta do the Mom thing and get supper on the table.</p>
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